Video Transcript (computer generated - may contain errors)

Sara Gentry: Hey, writers! Today I've got Erin Halden with me. Welcome, Erin!

Erin Halden: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here, Sara.

Sara Gentry: Well, I'm excited to talk to Erin because Erin's gonna walk us through creating a compelling story problem. But first let me introduce you to our writers here. So Erin is a writer, developmental editor and certified book coach, who helps writers dig into the emotional heart of their stories to solve the problems that are stopping them from getting to the end. She has a deep love of literature for young people, of all genres, characters on who am I journeys and stories that end on a note of hope. A former television producer and script writer, she has published more than a dozen short stories and holds an MFA in writing for children and young adults. When she's not thinking about talking about tinkering with and fixing stories, she can be found in her attic, writing more stories. That's fantastic.

Erin Halden: Thank you.

Sara Gentry:We share a common interest here in the who am I journeys. I know that you love helping writers create strong story problems. And I thought that would be really interesting topic of conversation here, because without a strong story problem, is there really even a story? So, we know that stories begin kind of in this state of like an everyday, ordinary kind of day. Especially like in the kidlit world. I think that's even even more common to establish. What is that normal? But once we get that established like what kinds of problems are we talking about that can kick off this ordinary day into something that will be compelling.

Erin Halden: Yeah. Well, it's a great question. And I think, really, there's, there's 2 questions sitting in that question, which is the first one is, what do we even mean by saying that stories start in a state of normal right? What does that even mean? Because I think this is something that can trip writers up. And then the second piece of that is, how do you craft a compelling story problem that will get you to the end. Right? And those 2 are linked together. But it is really important to step back a minute and say, like, What does that mean that we start in normal, right? It doesn't mean that we start with everything's fine, right? Nothing's going on. We're just hanging out, maybe doing some character building and world building as we wait for an inciting incident problem to come at the character. That's not what we mean when we say stories start in a state of normal right? What we mean when we say that to writers is that stories start in a state of status quo. And we all have a status quo on any given day. Right? We've got things that are going right. We've got things that are going wrong. We've got, you know, things that we're planning things we're trying to achieve or accomplish things we're trying to avoid emotions we're wrestling with. We have all of these things going on on any given day. That is our status quo, right? Characters need to step onto the page with the same sense of status quo that they have all of these things going on in their lives as well. And then the second piece of status quo is not just all the things that are the web of things that are happening in their lives on day one is they also need to have a sort of an external goal. It's something that they're sort of working on or working towards as the story opens. And this is pre inciting incident right? So this is not talking about the plot problems yet. This is, we're walking onto the page with this status quo, this web of things that we're dealing with inside this web. Is this this internal goal, this thing that this character is thinking like? Oh, if only I could, you know, blank, everything would be okay. Right. They have the reason. This internal or this external goal is really really important to have. it points to the internal need that the character is struggling with or wrestling with as they walk onto the page. Now, they won't necessarily be aware, as a character like what that internal need is yet. They're just working on something up here on the surface. Whether it's you know. Oh, if I could only just get out of this wilderness camp. My parents signed me up, for everything would be okay, right? Or if I could, just you know, get my parents back together, right. Everything would be okay. Everything right? So there's something that they're kind of working on on the surface level. That's gonna point us to what that internal need is that all needs to be part of the status quo that characters walk onto the page with. Because as writers, as we sit down and we try to figure out, okay, how do we craft a compelling story problem? A compelling story problem is a deep level problem. Right? It's this problem that's happening at the the internal arc level that's sitting under the surface. You've got like the plot level, the external plot that's sitting above the surface, right? This is kind of where the characters operating and underneath, as this internal arc. So when we say, like, what's a compelling problem, it's a deep level problem is what will give you a compelling story problem? That's gonna power you to the end of a story. And so if characters I see I read a lot of openings where characters they they've they. The writer has done all this great sort of character building and world building, and it's interesting, but they haven't done any internal arc building in those opening pages. We don't know what that internal need is and that's the compelling problem and the character trying to wrestle with this internal need over the course of the story. That is your internal arc and if you don't have that, or if you don't know what that is for your character. You're gonna have a really hard time figuring out what is the just, right inciting incident that's gonna upturn this character status quo. What is the just, right inciting incident that's gonna cause this character to wrestle with this issue because stories are change, right? Character needs to go from one state of knowing to another state of knowing right, from, you know, innocence to knowledge, or, you know, from being a follower to a leader, from being quiet to finding their voice. The way you achieve that shift is that they wrestle with the internal need. So if you haven't done your work yet on. And that status quo, and you haven't included that internal need. You're gonna have a really hard time figuring out what that compelling story problem is gonna be if that makes sense.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, yeah, I love this distinction between status quo and normal. I think that's a really interesting perspective. Because, yeah, most people are gonna have the balance of the good and the bad and then you know, maybe sometimes that balance is different than others. But it's a really interesting way to to look at that and just kind of see the characters as more well rounded, developed individuals as opposed to just this one dimensional character. So I know at least a pet peeve of mine when talking to people who either don't know children well or don't understand books or children. Well, one of my pet peeves is when adults kind of diminish children's problems as not being [...]. Those aren't real problems. Just wait until you're my age. And now you're gonna have real problems. And I just think that's so unfair. Because, you know, walking into the cafeteria and not knowing who I'm gonna eat lunch with today, that's a big problem that even many adults would be terrified of that experience. And yet we kind of downplay them because it's a kid problem, you know. So anyway, I think that sometimes people might look down on kids books as like, well, that's not a real problem. That's not a big enough problem to sustain an entire book. So I was just wondering if maybe you could speak to this.

Erin Halden: Yeah, no, yeah, it's a pet peeve of mine, too. We do kids such a disservice when we look down on what they're going through. It's easy as an adult to look back and say like, well, it's just. It's just a broken bike, you know. Wait till you have to deal with the broken down car. Right? You know. It's so easy to be dismissive of that, and and forget that there was a time when when we were 12, and the fact that our bike is broken means that we can't ride to the park to join our friends in the scratch baseball game that they're playing. Which means that when I go to school tomorrow, I'm going to be out of it right and like this is big deal because this is the first time they're encountering a problem like this, right? As adults, we've been through this several times at this point right? And so it's easy to be like, oh, it's not that big of a deal right? But. for kids, this is a really big deal, right? Difficulties in life have a progression that they follow right? And if you're thinking that you wanna write about kids, you need to be able to slide back down that progression and stand in that and understand just how big of a deal it was to have a broken bike to be able to join your friends. And really, you know, to say that these problems aren't big enough to sustain a story. I think in some ways this sort of circles back to what we were just talking about about this deep level problem and this internal need, like kids are wrestling with the same questions adults are. They’re wrestling with, you know. Who am I? You know. How will I get through this big change that's coming at me? Who will I be after this big change, you know. How do I love people? How do I trust people? How do I make friend? You know? How do I connect with people? They're the same universal ideas that we're wrestling with as adults. We're just now in a different context than we were when we were young. So if you if you're writing for kids, this idea that, like their problems aren't big enough, just means you haven't dug deep enough to find that universal question that kids are wrestling with. That is absolutely more than enough than you need to write a story. There's nothing about a kid, you know, a kid wrestling, you know, kid, with a broken bike who's getting left out is somebody who's struggling for connection. And adult books are about those sorts of things, too. So yeah, kids are whole people. They're they're learning. They're building their framework for how they build these, how they react to these situations. It's the first encounter they're having with these. And so their reactions are big. But that doesn't mean that their stories are small in any way. We don't want to look down on them. We do them a disservice when we do that.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, yeah, I love the context of the universal problem, the universal human need. I really love that. That was really good. So I mean, I guess, on the flip side of all this, though whether we're writing for children or adults, some problems are not worth devoting an entire novel to. So I don't know if you have any any tips for writers about how to figure out well, first of all, if a story problem is big enough to sustain an a novel size story, or maybe if you're wrestling with trying to decide if you're open to writing in different kinds of formats, even like I think sometimes people will always assume that in the kidlit world, like simply the age of my protagonist is going to determine my, you know, middle Grade or Ya market, or something like that. But that's not always true, either, like the kind of problem we're encountering might determine what market you're writing for. So yeah, do you? Do you just have any tips for writers who might not be sure. Maybe let's first start with figuring out whether their problem will sustain an entire novel.

Erin Halden: Yeah. I would return to the idea that, like is, does your story problem touch on a deeper level, an internal need. And if it's not connecting, if you can't find a way to connect it to this deeper level need that your character is experiencing. As the story starts. Then it's probably not gonna be compelling enough. Just throwing plot problems at a character is not is not gonna be compelling. You'll have a story that sits on the surface. It won't have like tracks that it's running on, right? The internal arc is the sort of tracks that the train runs on. So your train is not gonna go anywhere if you haven't right. So you can keep throwing plot problems at characters. But they're not. If they're not connecting to that deeper internal need. That's gonna they're gonna wrestle with in order to move through and resolve that internal arc of change. Then it isn't a compelling story problem that's gonna get you to the end of the story. So I would say that even if you're considering like, is this, maybe a short story or a, you know? Even so, you need to have an internal component of a short story as well. So you might not get a long format. If you have a a big, deep, level story problem that a character can wrestle with in multiple ways over the course of a straight. Then you've got a long, you know, a novel-like length.

Sara Gentry: Right.

Erin Halden: But if you have something smaller, maybe you don't. You have a small. You don't have a full cast of characters. You don't have a world you need to build and you just wanna focus on this one moment. Right? Then you still need to have that internal. You need to touch that internal need piece, but rather than a full arc of change. What you're probably looking at is a step toward change. If that.

Sara Gentry: Right.

Erin Halden: So that would, you know, if you're trying to decide like, how do I have a problem big enough for this story? I mean that? That's what you wanna ask, can I imagine my character wrestling with this in multiple ways until they reach that point right where? The stakes of not changing, grow to hide with, ignore, and then they resolve that internal need, and we get our story resolution.

Sara Gentry: Yeah.

Erin Halden: But if it's something smaller but you know, that doesn't have like subplots and characters and world building, and you can't imagine how a character might interact with this need and multiple ways. Then you might have a shorter story, and then you're aiming for more of like a step forward toward change. Rather a big, full arc. If that makes sense.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, yeah, I can kind of think of like, for instance, if I was writing sports stories, for instance, and if I want to write a story about the first time my character has had to endure a loss. For instance, that's probably more like a short story we're gonna learn about what it means to be like a good sport, you know, to handle loss with grace. But if I want like a full novel, then maybe I'm looking at a sports star that has been placed on a losing team, and he's got to endure loss after loss. And maybe now he's got to learn what it means to be a good teammate, and it becomes a slightly bigger, like you're talking, like a deeper problem, and not just. Oh, shucks! I lost my basketball game again.

Erin Halden: Right? Exactly. Yeah.

Sara Gentry: Yeah. Well, writers, I Erin, it's just so knowledgeable about story problems. And creating good ones and fleshing them out into really good stories, and she has an amazing resource that I would love to point you to here. So, Erin, could you tell us about your resource here on creating story problems?

Erin Halden: Yeah, so because I encounter this with writers, stories that have character building and world building, but no internal arc building at the beginning. I created a story workbook to help writers think through what they need to think about as they craft the internal arc piece of the opening of their story. It's just a 3 step process. Each step has a series of prompts. That sort of leads you to think through. You know what your character is wrestling with, why, they're wrestling with it, and then helps you sort of game out different scenarios till you can find that that just right inciting incident that's gonna upend their status quo right? And send them on the adventure of the story right? And make sure that everything is connected, that that external story and the internal arc are connected. So that you have a big enough deep level story problem. That's gonna power you through to the end. And then there's at the end of all of that, those prompts. I also have a case study where I take a book, and I go through all those steps so that they can see what it looks like with a finished book. So yeah, it's like I said, there's so much to learn and so much to think about as you're getting a story off the ground. And this internal piece is something that sometimes gets skipped or we're waiting. Raiders are waiting for the inciting incident to kick all of this off, and the thing is, is like, you know, so many, so many writers are like, how can an agent judge my story by the first pages? Right. This is how they judge it. If they don't feel that sense of a deeper internal need that's gonna lead to a big, compelling problem. They say, no right away on those early pages. So you need to get it there right from page one and make sure that you understand how the the external plot and the internal plot sort of link together to bring you through to the end of your story?

Sara Gentry: Yeah love it. So, writers, I I think you've probably gathered from this conversation that Erin is really smart about this stuff, and also very widely and well read, and just knows tons of things about writing for both middle grade and young adults, and so definitely check out her resource. And Erin, I wanna thank you so much for your time and for joining me today.

Erin Halden: Of course it was a pleasure. Thank you, Sara.

Sara Gentry: Alright writers. We will catch you next time. Bye.