Video Transcript (computer generated - may contain errors)

Sara Gentry: Hey, writers. Today I am joined with Karyn Fischer. Welcome, Karyn.

Karyn Fischer: Thank you. Happy to be here.

Sara Gentry: And I would love to introduce our writers to you a bit more. Karyn is an Author Accelerator certified book coach, and a former children's book and YA literary agent with Book Stop literary agency. Before turning to agenting and coaching. She was a serial publishing intern, a bookseller and book buyer at an Indie bookstore and an agency assistant. She holds an Mfa in creative writing and writes Middle grade and young adult fiction. She started Story and Prose book coaching and editorial services in 2021, with the goal of helping more writers by offering 10 plus years of industry, knowledge, tough love, and honesty and true passion. She helps aspiring best selling fiction writers hone their craft and write better books, so they're more likely to get published, and writers, as you have heard here. Karyn has so many different experiences within the writing and publishing world. So I'm sure this is going to be a fantastic Karyn Fischer: Yeah, hopefully, it's definitely been a journey to get to this place.

Sara Gentry: Absolutely. So I've asked Karyn here to talk specifically about stakes, because we know that stakes are really important aspect of any story, and sometimes they can be hard to get right. It feels like maybe something that we tinker with quite a bit along the way through the writing and rewriting process. So before we get too deep into it, just because I wanna make sure everybody is on equal footing here. Could you define stakes for our writers here?

Karyn Fischer: Sure. So I think of stakes kind of the easiest way to think about it is the consequences. It's what happens if your protagonist fails to achieve whatever they're searching for, aiming for or and or what happens when they get it right so it could be good or bad. But those consequences EW the driving force behind why they're doing what they're doing and what they stand to lose or gain as a result of those goals, and as after as they strive.

Sara Gentry: Yeah. And it's really interesting that I'm glad you mentioned positive and negative stakes, because like, in a positive sense, it could be like I'm trying to win the championship, and maybe if I lose that game like the world doesn't end. But it's very disappointing for me. But that's kind of more like I get the trophy if I win, and then on the flip side, it's like if I have negative stakes, and if I don't accomplish my mission. Maybe the world blows up, or something.

Karyn Fischer: Yeah, it's really what is important to the character and why they're doing what they're doing and consequences. That's, I think, just the simplest way of thinking about it. Stakes is a confusing word. It used to be a confusing word to me, but it's just consequences.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, I love that. Alright. So. We often hear people talk about the differences. Sometimes we've got external stakes. Sometimes we have steaks that are perhaps of a more internal nature. Could you help us distinguish between those?

Karyn Fischer: Sure. So the external stakes are more those concrete, more tangible things that a character is searching for. So, for instance, if you have a character. Who they wanna win a cooking competition. Let's say it's the like why, what they get from that cooking competition, right? Do they get, is it achieving that lifelong dream, you know, escaping their small town? They're really going for a reason, and in that, you know. It's just tangible. That's kind of the way to think about it external and the internal is way more you know the emotional consequences that you could result. So for this cooking competition, maybe you have a character who's, you know, trying to prove that their dreams of becoming a chef matter to their parents or you know that they are valuable, that their skills matter in some way, and that, you know, in order to escape their small town, they have to prove to the naysayers in their lives. You know what they're trying to do. And so it really comes down to that. The emotional stakes at. You know that the character has in their hearts and in their minds and the driving forces, because that's ultimately a lot of times. What is driving us is the emotional internal side. Sure, we want the you know, the fame and recognition, maybe down the road, or you might secure them that job of the fancy chef in the restaurant. But ultimately it's okay. Well, what do you want from that? The emotional elements you want, like the, the meaning, the recognition, the belonging, whatever it is right?

Sara Gentry: Right. Well, it's not uncommon for writers to get feedback perhaps on a 1st draft or something, or even in a rejection letter that maybe there's a disconnect that we're not sure why we should care about the story, which kind of indicates that maybe maybe the stakes aren't there. From your perspective, how can you tell if the stakes are kind of weak in a story?

Karyn Fischer: Exactly what you just said. Like, If there's this why should I care? Why should I care what you know? That means that either you have a problem with the character you're not going deep enough into there, the wise. But if we don't have a reason to care. Then that is the 1st thing that tells me that there's low stakes, that there's not enough internal and external motivation and and stakes happening. And that there aren't any big, difficult choices that the character is facing. So if you have, if it's really easy for the character the whole time, and you're not forcing them into these kind of difficult situations where they have to choose between one hard choice and another. Hard choice. Then sometimes that's pretty low stakes, too. If there's no complications or discomfort for your character, then the stakes probably aren't high enough.

Sara Gentry: Right. Do you find  that it matters, the balance between the external and the internal? Like if one of them is missing, is that enough of a reason to say the stakes aren't there? Even if one of them is very strong, and maybe one of them is not quite so strong?.

Karyn Fischer: That's a great question. I do think you have to have both. But I think if one is strong, I mean, you're already halfway there. Right? You're more than a lot of new beginning writers. But if you have both, and you get that a lot more of the tension, a lot more suspense. And I think you care a lot more, because, especially if they're woven together, really? Well, like, you know, if the goal that they're striving for really does relate back to like their wounds, and who they are, as people, you know, and then you can kind of make both. And you could play with both stakes, because the whole point of stakes is you want to keep increasing them throughout the book. Right? You make it harder. Make it harder, make it harder. And so, if you just have things getting harder internally. But there's no external plot happening. Then. you know, the reader might not be as interested.

Sara Gentry: Right.

Karyn Fischer: Engaged, or they may not care as much, and vice versa, if it's all plot. But you don't really get any of that character. What's on the line for their hearts and souls as people? Then the same thing. Then it's like, Okay, well, great. There's a bunch of war happening. But I don't really get what that means to this character. I don't really. I don't really care about what they care about, because I don't know what they care about. Right?

Sara Gentry: Yeah, that makes sense. So do you have any advice here for some writers who might be like, my stakes are weak, and I need to. I need to up the ante here.

Karyn Fischer: Yeah, definitely. So I mean, I think it all starts with that character like we said, right? So it's knowing who they are and what they want and why they want it. Asking that. Why? Question? So I'm always asking like, well, why? Why? Why? Why? Okay? Well, they want this cooking again, going back to the cooking competition. Well, they want it because they want to leave their town right? Well, why? Because maybe they have a hard home life. Okay? But you know. So you want to leave that home life. But what else do you want? You know what? Why do? Why is it cooking. So it kinda plays with multiple elements. Right? Why is it cooking? Well, how does this connect to, you know, the things you need deep in your heart? And and how do you make those tricky for them that make them have sure, difficult choices? So that's the 1st thing I do. I look at the character and dig deep into their why’s, both externally and internally. And then you ask, what do they stand to lose, and what do they stand to gain? Those are kind of just the basic questions, right? What's what's on the line for them, emotionally and in a plot point, or externally. And then the other thing is ask why now? Right? So it's about the urgency piece, too. Why, why do they have to do this now? Why are they striving for this now? Why do they have to accomplish this right now, instead of you know, 2 years ago, or whatever it is.

Sara Gentry: Sure.

Karyn Fischer: So the urgency helps, too. It's all about keeping your characters tortured, torturing your characters right? I think that you can apply that to the obstacles of the story, but really like making things hard on your character and not giving them an easy way out at all is a great way to to keep upping those stakes and weaving the external ones, and with internal ones all the way all the way through, all the way through. RIght?

Sara Gentry: Yeah. Okay, so on the flip side of that, it can get to a point, if things escalate where we're just like, oh, my gosh! This is completely ridiculous, because everything that possibly could have gone wrong has gone wrong, and I feel like I'm in the middle of a daytime soap opera now.

Karyn Fischer: Right, right.

Sara Gentry: So how can we make sure that we don't, you know, go from one extreme into the other?

Karyn Fischer: Right. So I think that the word that pops into my head when you ask that question is like keeping it organic. Right. So really it comes, knowing your character, knowing their world and is this realistic? Would this actually happen to them? Given the choices that they're making? Given the world that they live in, and the people in their lives, or whatever other forces of, you know, antagonism or obstacles you have coming at them. Would they be realistic? Right? So it's really about keeping it organic. And that's sort of the one of my like words you put up over your desk like, make it organic. And you know you could apply that to dialogue. You apply that to anything and has to really come from the character. From this the story you built and then again tying it really, really to your character, the closer I think you are to your character, the less likely you're going to be to go over the top, because especially with the internal stakes, of course, right? Because it's as the more you know them and what things mean to them. I think that kind of helps crystallize your vision of what should happen to them and what to do to keep them? So the. So you're not going overboard? Because if you don't know your character, then it's gonna be, oh, have this. You know, this dog comes in and attacks him, and it's like, Well, that doesn't really do anything that's kind of out of place here. It's it not realistic? And what would they actually do in this? And would that actually affect them on the certain level that you're aiming for so.

Sara Gentry: So if I'm hearing you correctly, we just wanna make sure that every time we add a complication that it's something that matters both to the actual plot line of the story as well as to my character. Because, I don't know, back to your cooking example. If we have say somebody here about a flood that's happened in a neighboring city like 3 towns away, or something like maybe that's not something that we're going to include in the story, unless we can figure out a way to tie it directly.

Karyn Fischer: Right, exactly. It's not. It might be in the world that they live in. But it's not in the characters world, right?

Sara Gentry: Yeah, so that makes a lot of sense.

Karyn Fischer: Really it all stumps from the characters and how they think and feel and act and behave, based on their choices, and based on those stakes.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, awesome. So I do want to make sure writers, you would have an opportunity here to connect with Karyn. Karyn, do you wanna tell us about the kind of work that you do now with writers?

Karyn Fischer: Sure I offer one on one services mostly just you know, from kind of planning your book out, or to pitching your book to agents and editors, and then my special passion is helping them revise an already written manuscript. So that's really, I think, where my strengths lie. And obviously I did that a lot as an agent, and, you know, took something that was already working where my heart is. So that I that's kind of my my biggest where I'd like to go mostly, and put most my focus on. 

Sara Gentry: Awesome. And where can people find you online?

Karyn Fischer: Yes, my website is storyandprose.com. And I also am on Instagram at storyandprose. Yeah, those are the main places you can find me.

Sara Gentry: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. For your time. And for this conversation it's been really good. I hope, writers that you've been able to take away something here for your own stories. And Karyn, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and insight with us.

Karyn Fischer: Oh, yeah, thank you. It's been a pleasure, and I hope you're able to come and find me if you have more questions, or you know. Look me up.

Sara Gentry: Absolutely alright. Well, thank you. Writers, we will catch you next time.

Karyn Fischer: Thanks, bye.