Video Transcript (computer generated - may contain errors)

Sara Gentry: Welcome writers. I am so happy today to have Amy L. Bernstein with me. Welcome, Amy.

Amy L. Bernstein: Thank you, Sara. I'm really glad to be here.

Sara Gentry: So Amy is an author and a book coach and well, 1st I will introduce our writers to you, and then we'll jump into the book that you are currently getting ready to release into the world. It's going to be very exciting. Amy is an eclectic practitioner of literary arts, a multi-genre novelist, award-winning journalist, speechwriter, playwright, poet, and certified nonfiction. Book coach. Her new book, wrangling the doubt. Monster fighting fears finding inspiration will be published by Bancroft Press in January of 2025. So, as you can see writers, Amy has written lots of things across lots of markets, and she's just a wealth of information. And so we are going to have a real treat for us here today, as Amy is going to talk to us about wrangling this doubt. Monster? So let's hop right into it. Do you mind? Can we? Can we jump right into it? Okay, so 1st of all, what inspired you to write this book. In the 1st place.

Amy L. Bernstein: It really was growing in me, I think, as a seed, as so many books do, right for a really long time, and I got to a point where I couldn't stop thinking about saying something, because in conversation after conversation with writers that I talked to, including, you know, around the world. It doesn't matter if you're in the Us. Or Canada, or New Zealand or England. This notion about questioning your ability as a writer or as an artist comes up in every conversation. You know. I don't know. Can I do this? Am I good enough? I don't really know. And so I realized that we're just all riddled with doubts. And believe me, I include myself, and we don't talk about it. I think we feel vulnerable. We think we're the weak link. We think everybody else is going around confidently, and we're the ones who, you know, are lacking that confidence. And it's just not true, it's so universal. And I wanted to find a way to kind of get those. Get those ideas out there on paper that we can talk about them.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, no, that's that's very well said especially since in the book world we often don't really see a product until it has until it's like at the finish line. We we weren't able to watch that writer mess with the outline and their ideas and try to... The wrangling is just such a great word as they're trying to piece them together. And then all the rounds of edits and all the things that would have happened in the dark nights of the soul along the way.

Amy L. Bernstein: Yeah, it's true. I mean it. We are. We're kind of. We're all mushrooms, aren't we? We're sort of like sprouting in the dark, you know, alone under a tree.

Sara Gentry: Here I am. So I've had the privilege, writers, of reading this book. Even though it hasn't exactly been released yet. But I had the privilege of reading advanced copy and so I asked Amy if we could maybe talk about some of the ideas in her book, and one of the things that I loved early on in the book is the way that you present doubt and this idea of it having 2 minds, and I wondered if you might expand on that a bit.

Amy L. Bernstein: Yeah. So I think that doubt comes in many flavors, and it lives inside us in many layers, kind of like a delicious cake, only there are many days we wake up, and it's not so tasty. And so, you know, on the one hand, we're doubting whether we can, whether we should, whether there's any purpose to sort of making our art, whether that's writing or whatever it might be. And so we're both doubting whether this is time that we should use in this way to make something from nothing, because we live in a culture where we like to measure and see our productivity in some very set ways, and making art is not one of those ways. So there's doubt on that level. But then there's doubt about just our literal talent and taste level like. Who am I to think I can do this? Who told me I could write a novel. I don't know if I can write a novel, and so it really lives in us, as I, as I say in these different layered ways, and we think we have to acknowledge all the ways that we doubt. Kind of. Some are on the surface, and some are deeper down. And it's something that we have to be very aware of.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, I love that. And even within the creative field, I mean, it wouldn't necessarily have to just be writing music or any of these things.

Amy L. Bernstein: Anything, anything.

Sara Gentry: Yeah.

Amy L. Bernstein: I call it making something from nothing, and that could be. That's it applies in any field, and you know it even applies to people like entrepreneurs who want to start a company that doesn't exist. It really is extensive. Yeah.

Sara Gentry: Yup, and it feels like, you talked about how the doubt shows up in different ways. But what's also interesting about. That is how much we might internalize those like I might feel. Doubtful about myself or my ability, but I can also feel doubtful about the thing I'm creating. Is it? Is the actual, tangible item any good. Is it a good idea, is it something people will connect with like there, there's so many so many buckets of doubt along the way.

Amy L. Bernstein: It's so true because any art making enterprise begins with an inferior impulse. Right it it something something generative, springs to life inside of us, and we want to make that thing real for other people to see, or touch, or taste, or feel or read, and you have no way of knowing whether you're going to be able to make that connection between what's inside you as this little tiny germ or an idea and what you end up creating. That's then somehow, outside you. I mean, this would even extend to think about a chef who's inventing new recipes, and they're trying to put ingredients together that no one's put together before you. They don't know yet if it's going to taste good, and if it tastes good to them, it might not taste good to the people who, you know, samples it next. So we don't know. And so that's a whole level of doubt unto itself that you really don't find in other disciplines.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, yeah, that's that's really well said. So maybe let's tackle there's gonna be writers who are listening and watching, who might be at various stages of the process, maybe even various stages of their careers. Maybe let's start with that 1st time writer who has never written. Let's call it. Let's go with a book, because people have usually written something just by going through school, if written, an essay, or a poem, or a short story or something. But now somebody wants to tackle writing a book, and they've never done that before. What in your experience are the kinds of doubts that these writers are typically facing.

Amy L. Bernstein: Well. What are the doubts that they're not facing the list? That's a much shorter list, right? What I always say is, and I and I look back at my own 1st early endeavors, and I kind of know where I went wrong, and in. I quit. I started to try and write a romance novel, my twenties and I wrote some chapters, and I was really excited. I had nobody. I didn't know anybody doing this. I didn't know how to bounce it off on. I had no reality checks built into that process. I was really alone, and I quit because I was like, I I don't know what I'm doing. I can't do this. Why, I don't know what this is. I can't see what's motivating, motivating me to go on, and I quit because my doubts were so much greater than my sense of just do it right. So what I say to really kind of try to inspire somebody to keep going is. I actually think it's important to acknowledge that you're going to question yourself every step of the way. And, by the way, it's not just your 1st book. It's also true of your 3, rd your 5, th and your 10th. But you're going to question yourself every allow those questions to be present, but at the same time give yourself just as much permission to keep working on it, anyway, because it's not a question. It's a question of not allowing the doubt to choke off the Creator in you. They have to. They're gonna have to coexist. They're gonna have to find a way to be in the room together. The room that's in your head. It's a very noisy place, and so what you need to do is really dig into. Why you want to tell this story, why it matters to you so much. Connect with your passion for writing the book and live there. Well, in that passion. And why you really want to tell this story and let those other things sort of hang around in the background. But that's not what's been. That's not what. What will keep you going forward. It's literally connecting yourself to the story and the need to tell it. And that's how you keep going. It's kind of the only way to keep going.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, I think sometimes writers are nervous about not knowing, like the right steps or the system, or things like that. But honestly, there's a wealth of information out there. There's all these books on how to write a book. There are programs on how to write a book and courses. And obviously, we're book coaches, and we help people write, to work through that process. So there is help. But help can only take you so far if you're not willing to.

Amy L. Bernstein: That is right. I and I really think that we can over consume the advice very too easily, because there's so much of it out there, and a lot of it is free. There's a lot of good advice that's free, and even what you pay for a lot of it is accessibly priced. And so I think that that can only sometimes backfire by it, actually ratchets up and magnifies the doubts that you have. And that's because so much of the advice that's out there for writers is holding up people who have been successful and already done this. And it's understandable. We're being shown. Here's a way. Here's how to do this. And look this. This turned out well, and that's fine, because you have to see that that's out there, but it can really really make you feel incompetent and insecure and inexperienced by comparison. And it's very hard not to compare. So that's why I always say go back into your own head, connect with your passion as a storyteller, and dwell there because you've got to put this other noise in the background. It won't go away, but otherwise it'll overwhelm you, and you'll just stop.

Sara Gentry: Yeah. Yeah. So what if our writer has decided that they're gonna proceed, they're on their way? They're writing the book. But inevitably more doubt. Different. Different kinds of doubt are going to creep up along the way through the process. What what do you suggest for writers who are perhaps stuck in their process because they've come up against new doubts. Maybe they were able to connect with their reason for wanting to write this book. But now something else is just not letting them plow through.

Amy L. Bernstein: Right. There's the doubt that arises in the middle of the process itself. And this is hard. You know, I always talk about the muddle in the middle, where you've written several chapters, and maybe you're heading toward the middle of your book. And suddenly it's just molasses, and the whole thing grinds to a halt, and you're really ready to sort of shelved the whole thing. 1st of all, it's important to acknowledge. I mean, look, this is such a lonely business that I think, wherever we can acknowledge that we're not really alone in it, is almost cheering in and of itself. Every writer goes through this in some way, at some point, with almost every book, every writer, and if they, if they tell you otherwise, they're they're kind of lying, or they're just writing really badly. I don't know what to say. So the 1st thing to note it, to acknowledge, is that this is normal. It's normal to feel that way. I didn't do anything wrong. It doesn't mean I fail. It's not the universe telling me to quit. It's a normal part of the process, and sometimes you need to take a break from the project. Go off, and if you're writing a novel, go off and try and write a short story in a different genre, you know. Go off and try and write an essay or an OP. Ed. For your local newspaper, or just take a break, right, and just, you know, read, read something different. Try and get your head into a different game, and you'll come back to it, and chances are you'll find a way to restart that engine. You also could bravely share a couple of pages with someone who can give you really knowledgeable feedback. That's not necessarily your best friend, or your sister, or your uncle. It may well be a book, coach, or an editor, or someone who really understands how to spot what's going right in a manuscript, and where that manuscript might be, you know, running into some challenges that can really help you. If you find the right advice. Bottom line is simply don't take your doubts and your sense of bewilderment as a sign that you've messed this up. You're in a normal place in your creative process, and there are ways through it.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, I'm really glad that you pointed out that this is a normal thing. I mean, you were talking about the molasses in the middle. I'm like, I think she's talking about me right now. But I think one thing that separates people who have written a lot versus people who have maybe not written so much thus far is just that the people who have written a lot have gotten more comfortable with that uncomfortable feeling of knowing this is perfectly normal, and I will survive and persevere.

Amy L. Bernstein: And also looking back on myself in my very early twenties, trying to write this romance novel, knowing nothing about how to write a book. I just had it in me that I always knew. I always knew I wanted to do it. Always I had studied I mean it was an English major, but that had nothing to do with writing, you know, writing full length fiction, and I remember getting like a couple of chapters done, and I was really excited, and I think I just got to a place where I don't think I know what happens next. Like I didn't know anything about pantsing and plotting, and I didn't know all these vocabulary for any of that, I just got stuck, and instead of being either the kind of person or surrounding myself with people who could just show me that I wouldn't stay stuck. I just assumed oh, well, that's that. I don't. I don't know what this. I don't. I can't just can't go on, you know. I went back to my full time job and said, Well, forget this, and looking back, I'm really sorry I couldn't i i can't take my older self back there and go. No, you know, I think you can figure this out, you know. Stick with it. Don't give up, but I gave up.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, but well, yes, you did. But maybe you didn't, because you did come back.

Amy L. Bernstein: Specifically, I came back to writing absolutely. I gave up then. It didn't mean that I gave up forever. Yeah.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, yeah, alright. So we've talked about some 1st timers here, and maybe some writers who haven't done as much. But as you have mentioned, all writers are gonna face trouble along the way here as they're working on their next book, or you know whether it's their second or their 20th. What are some doubts that you find creeping up with writers who maybe have more experience under their belt?

Amy L. Bernstein: Well, they face a different raft of challenges, and I think that any writer who's had a bit of success is up against imposter syndrome, which I consider a very special brand of doubt, is to me. Having dwelt in this realm for a while, not all doubts are the same imposter syndrome to me arises when you have achieved something, and other people have recognized your achievements. And then this comes back to bite you because you say, well, wait a minute. What's my secret sauce? What did I do to have that success like that? I'm sure I really earned that, and I think I can sustain this, so I think that I envy. I don't envy those writers that have an unexpected, enormous fast success that then have to follow that up with something, and they are quaking in their boots because they just are like, I. I don't know how my second act is going to top my 1st act, meaning my second book topping my 1st book. I don't mean acts within a book. And I think that's his own special circle of hell. To be honest. And you know, I think the only way through that thicket is to go back to the same core principle which is, find the story you really want to tell. Dwell in the need to tell that story, and what happens in that story and live there and try. And, you know, put a gate up against the rest of the noise, or at least, you know, make it stand outside the barricade.

Sara Gentry: Yeah. Well, the external validation is a very real part of our industry for good or for bad. And I know that there are some writers who feel that their later books are better than the one that was the big hit that sent them out. But later books maybe didn't get the same kind of love or the same kind of attention. And then, of course, you talk about the writers with their sophomore slump, and like not even being able to put forth the book because they feel the weight of that so heavily. So I I agree with you. I think that that is probably worse than the doubts of thinking that you can't do something to know that you've done something, and yet you might not have had a lot of control over what you did.

Amy L. Bernstein: The other, and the other yet the other permutation is, you have a book that really hits your 1st book, and then the truth is, that was the one great book you had in you.

Sara Gentry: Yes.

Amy L. Bernstein: And your second book is actually not as good, and your 3rd is not as good as that, or there are writers who become so afraid they think they have to just duplicate that same success. So they write a second book that's too similar to the 1st and a 3rd that's too similar to the 1st and the second. I've seen authors do that, and each one's less of a good copy, you know, than the one before. So yes, it really is, it's fraught. This whole process is fraught. Being a writer. It's a difficult, hard thing. It is period.

Sara Gentry: Well, and you're someone who has written across different formats and different markets. I think that can also be a different form of fear and doubt, like somebody who maybe was able to break through writing mysteries or something like that. And but they've always had it in their heart to write a children's fantasy novel, but they're afraid to make that leap because they're worried about ruining their brand or market.

Amy L. Bernstein: And that's a sad, sad commentary, Sara, and I think, unfortunately, it's more than a grain of truth in what you're saying. I think it's so sad. I remember reading about an author who was no, I can't remember the specifics. She was known for a particular genre, but she really, really, really, really want. She'd been well done. She had done well in that genre, but she really wanted to write a very different kind of book, and even you know, her agent pushes back, and it's like everybody wants more of the same from you, and I think that's sad. It's sad when the business and the marketing and all that kind of thing. Pigeonhole a writer. When the reason that we're doing this, in the 1st place, is basically to unleash our imaginations in whatever direction it takes us. And I just don't think any. I don't think any writer should ever feel constrained by what the market quote unquote wants. I mean, it's true that maybe your agent's going to tell you. Well, I can't get you a big advance for this other book, because you're not known in that niche. Well, you know you have to grapple with that, you know. But at the end of the day, what matters to you does it? Really, you know, using your imagination in the way that you know you can, or you want to compromise for others more. You know, mundane reasons like, you know, putting food on the table.

Sara Gentry: Well, there is that sometimes the pragmatic side of us wins out, perhaps. But yeah, we. So we've talked about a lot of bad aspects of doubt, and I'm sure that these are resonating with a lot of writers, because you just cannot be writing and not feel doubt somewhere along the way. But are there any like positive takeaways that we can have by having doubt as part of our process, our life.

Amy L. Bernstein: I think so. I think so. I think the more you write the better you should be getting at being able to step back from your own work, using doubt in a sort of positive context where you can really say to yourself. Yyou know, I don't think this scene is doing what I thought it was going to do. I think maybe I need to cut this scene because X or Y, or recognizing you know what I I don't. I think. The climax in this 1st draft is not in the right place. I think it really needs to come a bit later in the book. I think I peaked too soon because of X and Y. And so you're doubting what you've done. But in a really positive, constructive way, where you've been able to learn your craft well enough that you could start asking yourself these hard questions about what's working and what's not working, especially what's not working, and why? And so we could we, you could say, Oh, you know, you're just having. You're second guessing yourself, and well, maybe. But that can have a real upside to it if you're doing it the right way for the right reasons. It's not like you know. Stephen King is famous for literally having thrown the entire draft of I think it was Christine, the 1st book. He threw it in the trash, and his wife picked it out. I said, No, no, like I mean talk about second guessing and having doubts, he literally threw away his 1st book. She rescued it. I think this is true. I don't think it's apocryphal. It's been printed too many times for it to have. Maybe I've lived this long. And she said, No, no, Steven this is great. You know, we're gonna submit this or whatever she said. That part I made up. You definitely can use doubt in a constructive and positive way. If doubt also keeps you, you know, from thinking that you can jump off a very tall cliff, and you know, and live to tell the tale so. It protects us, too.

Sara Gentry: Yes, I agree. I think we do see examples of people, perhaps, who don't have any doubt that they can write a book, and they just spit one out, you know, in a week. And then they put it up online and there would be an example of where maybe doubt would have helped to bring that in.

Amy L. Bernstein: Agreed.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, no, I I love this idea of. I mean, we. We just have to get comfortable with the with the good and the bad and as you said that we just become more accustomed to it the more practice we have. We just kind of get used to it, I guess. So let's talk just a bit here about the book which is going to come out in January. Do you want to tell our writers where they can find it, because you can pre order. Now, right.

Amy L. Bernstein: Absolutely. It would be so wonderful if you just went on to Amazon, for now, and just literally reserved a copy. You just, you know you do what you do when you're pre-ordering a book. You just. You're ordering it. You're just not getting it right away. I would love it if people did that, if they just put in wrangling the doubt Monster and Amazon, it should pop right up. You'll see right now that there's only I think he's calling it. Is he calling it a paperback, meaning my publisher. There will be eventually there will be an ebook. There will even be an audio book. But honestly, it means a lot to me right now, if people just pre-order what they can and they can also learn more, a little bit more about the book on my website, and some of the great early reviews that I have gotten as well.

Sara Gentry: Fabulous. Yes, and writers will have links to all of that, and connections to Amy, and since I have had a chance to see the book. I'm sure the audio book will be lovely, and I am an audio fanatic. But in this case I do like the visual version, whether that's gonna be on an ebook or a paperback, because there are these wonderful illustrations to complement the lovely content that you've written. And it's probably worth pointing out writers that this is a short read. You can read it in an afternoon. And or you can digest it in small chunks, but it's gonna sit on the bookshelf next to books like the War of Art and big magic. And those types of creative, inspirational books like.

Amy L. Bernstein: And if I can add just one last point. There are a lot of books out there, you know, for writers, and I would say I, I'd like to say, this is different in that. 1st of all. Yes, it's very short. It's sort of meant to sit next to your laptop or on your nightstand, and it's really meant to be dipped in and out of for inspiration and encouragement. This is not a how to book. It's not a workbook. It's not a guide in the traditional sense, it's not. It's not like. There's some pretty heavy psychology books out there about creativity. It's none of those things. It's really meant to inspire and encourage every self, doubting creative person. And that is its goal and purpose. And that's what I really wanted to do for people.

Sara Gentry: Love it, love it so, writers, you've heard it first.st Here, you're getting an early scoop to this book that will come out here in the New Year, and it will be great. And, Amy, I just want to thank you again so much for your time. And I did. Oh, I do want to point out, because you are also a book coach. We'll have a link to your website. But do you care to talk about how people can connect with you there if they are writing. I know you focus more primarily on nonfiction, but.

Amy L. Bernstein: Yes. Well, you know, if you go, if you even go to my author's website, Amy Wrights, dot live. There's a link to my book coaching site through there. If people are interested in exploring that. And I do coach primarily, nonfiction very selectively, memoir, but mainly nonfiction. So I definitely play on both sides of that.

Sara Gentry: Yes. Yes, you do. And you write and and you'll see on Amy's website. She's also written novels and all the things. And so you can find all this stuff. But I do think wrangling the Doubt monster will be a great resource for all you writers, and I hope that you will check it out. And, Amy, thank you again. Thank you so much for this fabulous conversation.

Amy L. Bernstein: Thank you, Sara. I really appreciate it.

Sara Gentry: Alright writers. We'll catch you next time. Bye.