Video Transcript (computer generated - may contain errors)

Sara Gentry: Welcome writers. I have Christy Yaros with me. Hi, Christy!

Christy Yaros: Sara.

Sara Gentry: And we are going to talk about something super fun today. But before we get into it, let me introduce Christy to you all. Christy is a certified book coach and story editor working with serious middle grade and young adult writers who want to create stories that engage, encourage and empower young people. She holds an MFA in writing for children from Simmons University, and she is one of the co-assistent regional advisors of the Scbwi New England chapter, and she is a co-host of the Coaching KidLit podcast, which is a fabulous podcast. If you are writing for middle grade and young adult, you should definitely check that out. So welcome, Christy.

Christy Yaros: Thanks, Sara. So what are we gonna talk about?

Sara Gentry: Yes, we are going to talk about overcomplication, because that is something I'm sure that no writers ever have trouble with.

Christy Yaros: Overcomplication. No, definitely, definitely, not.

Sara Gentry: Hopefully, we're gonna help the writers here to simplify what they need to simplify and focus on what they need to focus on. So when we talk about overcomplicating a story, specifically a novel.

Sara Gentry: What exactly are we talking about with overcomplication?

Christy Yaros: So when I think about it, it's, I think of how we tend to when we need something for the story, we add another element, add another character, add a subplot, add something until we have piles of things instead of things that are connected together, and weaving like a web to use. I feel like everything in your novel should have more than one purpose, and if it doesn't, then you're just like, how do you, as the writer, keep track of all this stuff, let alone, how is your reader going to keep track of that?

Sara Gentry: Yep, I love that because, all the ingredients it kind of reminds me of that episode of friends where Rachel's creating this trifle for Thanksgiving.

Christy Yaros: When the recipes stick together.

Sara Gentry: And she's like, it's got the ladyfingers and the custard and the beef and it's like a little bit, and a little bit of that. No, so, like all the ingredients in and of themselves, are not necessarily bad things, just like in a book, but might not be a good idea to throw them all together at the same time. Right.

Christy Yaros: And maybe if you end up with something that has beef and dessert like together, think, hmm where did I go wrong?

Sara Gentry: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think you know, I think this can happen a lot with writers who are perhaps thinking maybe they need more in order to have a fuller, richer story. But that's actually the opposite. Usually we're looking to dig deeper into a story rather than to cast a wider net. So you mentioned some of these? More things which yeah, more, more and more so like, maybe let's start with characters, our cast of characters. What does it look like when we've got too much going on in our cast of characters?

Christy Yaros: Well, I mean first, it's why do we have so many characters? And I think that a lot of us, I think, like to back up. I think sometimes some of us feel. Or maybe this is just me like that. You might only have one good story in you. So you're like, I'm gonna put all the things into this story because it might be the only novel I ever complete. Right? So every character is somebody that I know that had this thing happen to them, and this is somebody else, and then you put them all in there, and how, like, what are we doing with them. So I try to, and I'm actually guilty, and you and I have talked about this in the past, I'm an underwriter, so I'm not an underwriter like for insurance. But I write short, and I don't have a lot of characters, so I usually need to try to figure out how to add more in. So it can work the same way if you're under complicated need to over complicate. But like, what purpose are those characters serving, and how are they moving? Your plot and your protagonist and your characters arc forward. So you know, do you have a character just because you have a funny neighbor and you and you thought you wanted to put them in there, or can you make it so that that character is the embodiment of something that your character needs to learn or is going to need something from them to get through the story. So, it’s like, is there a character who embodies what your character, your protagonist, wants to be? This is the best that they can be. Is there another character who models that? Is there a character? Who can model the worst of. If your character doesn't learn the lesson that they need to learn in the story is that what they're gonna end up as is there somebody who can, who is struggling with something and gives them a way forward, but then also thinking about the traits that your character has. And how can you create characters that play off of those traits to make them butt heads, or create tension or conflict like just being, I think, deliberate about what you need, and who will best accomplish that? And sometimes that means taking 2 characters and combining them into one. And when you get to the revision point. Yeah, yeah, since we're talking about kicking off and like, maybe just being a little more deliberate about what you choose.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, I think sometimes, too, writers. In an effort to write something that feels authentic. we all have a lot of people in our lives like, we might have our immediate family, and then our extended family, and then our 3rd cousin once removed family, and then we have our friends, and we have our, you know, the people that we always run into at the grocery store and people in our community. And before you know it, there's like a hundred people that I've made a list of, that I'm coming into contact with on a fairly regular basis. And so an author might think I have to have a hundred people in order for this character's life to look like it's authentic, and that's just not the case.

Christy Yaros: No, and I mean, if I like to use this metaphor, too, that in the beginning of a story you're handing your reader a backpack, and you're putting things in and like, how much can they carry throughout while they're reading the story to keep track of, you know, to remember all of those things. And Stuart is talking during this summit about backstory, and so like looking at what he's talking about there and saying, what is it about these characters that can connect them to? To your protagonist?

Sara Gentry: Yeah.

Christy Yaros: It's kind of necessary at some point, even if you're not doing it during planning, but during revision you're gonna have to do it.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, no. I love that backpack analogy that's really good. Because, the more we put in there, the more we burden the reader with knowledge or information that they might need in order to understand the story. And I don't think there's a lot of people who want to make reading a chore like a heavy lifting exercise.

Christy Yaros: No.

Sara Gentry: Okay, so we've got characters. We've got too, sometimes, maybe some subplots, plot threads that it's like and maybe sometimes they're not even subplots. Sometimes those subplots are competing with the main plot, and then it's like, Oh, what is the actual story here? Because I've got 5 different things all happening at the same time. So how can we avoid having too many threads weaving through our stories?

Christy Yaros: I think that's connected to characters, too, because you have a character. They need to be doing something. So did they just create a subplot for themselves? Are they trying to be more interesting than your protagonist? And is their storyline trying to take over and compete like, what are they doing, and how are they connecting through so with your subplots? And you know, since I you know, I focus on middle grade and young adult, and the younger your audience the less of that you can have, because again, your readers can't handle that. So I know as you get into adult, you can have more. But still like, how complicated, how many books are you trying to cram into one book? So I try to think of your subplots and your threads as like, what are they? How are they complementing the main storyline? What are they? What are they giving us? Again, if you have a character who exemplifies what your car your protagonist is aiming to be, can you have a subplot where we're seeing what that that looks like, and how the protagonist is learning from that. I mean, we've got our emotional journey and our in our outward external plot happenings, and so which which subplots are moving along their journey, their internal journey, and which things do. We need to move the external part. And it's again, like I. The next thing we're good, it's all connected. It's just the difference between piling things on and trying to make a tapestry or a spider web where things are, or murder board if you want to think of it, how everything is kind of connected, like what I'm paying this character to be in the story like, what job can they have? And how can I give them more jobs? Can they carry a subplot.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, yeah.

Christy Yaros: Are they contributing? Are they also contributing to the main plot?

Sara Gentry: But certainly, if you were to remove it and nothing changes then just let it go.

Christy Yaros: Right, I mean, especially if you're thinking about it in terms of thread threaded together like a sweater. If I pull, if I tug on this, and the whole sweater falls apart like, okay, maybe maybe I shouldn't have pulled that straight. But if you can. Yeah, if it can come out. And I think sometimes it's what we have in our head, like we want this to be in the story, because again, it's maybe somebody we know in real life, or it's something that's important to us. And sometimes it's you do have, I promise everybody. You have more than one story in you, and you can do more than one. So you don't have to try and put all of the things into this one. So it may just be that's something I want to explore. But I'm going to explore it in a different story, not in in this one.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, yeah, because I think, too, the other problem that comes when we have too many of these subplots and threads and whatnot is, then it's confusion about what is the story even about? And I know that in the work that we do we tend to work with writers on, you know what they're trying to say with their story? What kind of point they're trying to make, and if you've got too many things going on, then it's like, Oh, well, this is about, you know, being the best person you can be, or it's about finding friends, or it's about. It's like Whoa, Whoa! Whoa! Like these are now conflicting with each other, perhaps, and pulling the reader away from maybe a deeper reading experience.

Christy Yaros: Right, or if you know you're out, and someone asks, Oh, what are you riding? And it takes you. You can't even. Well, it's about this girl who likes this, but she also likes that. And she does this, and she's got this friend who's like that. And that friend who's like this, and they're going on this adventure with, wait, no, wait! Hold on! Let me let me back up a little bit. There's also a dog, and they're also going on this trip. And then, okay, you don't know what your stories like.

Sara Gentry: Yeah.

Christy Yaros: Scale it back, scale it back, scale it back. Simplify It sounds so counterintuitive. But marketing and design is kind of the same way, whenever things that are appealing have a lot of white space, and it's not easy. You don't start with just putting a few things. It usually does start with putting all of those things and then pulling them back until you have just what you need. So it's definitely effort.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So for people who are, you know, since the event is Novel Kickoff here. And I assume most people are going to be in the planning or writing the 1st draft of their novel. Certainly a lot of this simplification happens in revision. You can't expect to do it all on the front end, but I do think there are some things that you can do on the front end to make it easier for you when you come to revise, so like, what are some things some writers can do here to to think more with simplification in mind from the get go?

Christy Yaros: So I mean, I think part of it depends on whether you're like a character, first, or a plot first writer, like what what came to you first. If if your character is the thing that came to you first, and now you're trying to put them in a situation, think about that character, the traits that you want to show, the theme that you want to show the journey, and then say, what else do I need to get that? If this, if my character needs to learn to be their more authentic self, who can I bring in? That's going to challenge that? Who's going to tell them they shouldn't be themselves? Who's gonna tell them they should? Who's gonna help them figure out who they are? And start kind of from what you need and build outwards. Same thing with your plot, if you know, if you're a plot first, and you've got a story like what is the best character to embody this journey. And how am I going to pop them in there and like just remembering that we are the creators, and we have permission, and you have permission and I give you my permission to do whatever you need to do to make it work so, especially when some of our ideas come from people, real people. Real people are complicated for so many reasons. Your characters don't have to be so. You can give them the traits that you need them to have right and and make it work from there. So it sounds so easy when you say it sounds so simple, but it's not. It's not. And I and I give you that. But I think really like you said before starting with your why like, why am I telling the story. What is the story that I'm trying to tell? And what pieces do I need that are going to help me get there? The best, the most straightforward? Yeah.

Sara Gentry: Yes. Yeah.

Christy Yaros: The best way without all of these extra things, and then, you know. You can add, you can always add more in revision, but every character you add you need to decide. Are they a main ish character? Are they a secondary? Are they a tertiary? Do they need a back story? Do they need their own emotional arc? Do I have to keep track of them in every single chapter? And you need a voice for them. I mean, right like, do you want to do without all of those things to yourself?

Sara Gentry: Yeah, no, that also maybe brings up a different kind of complication to writers. We won't go too heavy into this cause. It's probably a talk for another time, but it seems like writers will often want to complicate how they are telling the story, so not only are we complicating the story itself? But then it's like I'm going to have 12 Pov characters, and I'm going to have 3 timelines in 5 different worlds. And like all of these things. And it's just like, why, why, why are we doing this to ourselves?

Christy Yaros: Trying to call me out right now.

Sara Gentry: I know. We all do it.

Christy Yaros: I don't know if I can never come up with a story that only has 1 point of view. Of course not. I mean, do as we say, not as we do you all over complicate, but but because I think that's also a level of craft thing. Of how much experience you have that sometimes you feel that you need to overcome. I need 5 points of view, because otherwise I can't do this thing well. But you can. You just have to pare it down and think, what do I need like? Why do I need this extra point of view? Is it because well, without that point of view, then I couldn't possibly, you know, we can't know what's happening over here. Well maybe that's it. Trying like a cop out almost on yourself of not giving yourself enough credit that you can tell the story with less, that you can find ways to weave in that information that you think that they can't get unless there's another point of view. You know, I mean sometimes that obviously you do need more than one, and it depends on what you're doing. And I think my story is, I tend to like to think about that space in between 2 characters, and like what one person says and feels, and what another person says and feels, and how everybody thinks that they're the truth. But like, what is that part in between and kind of leaving it up to the writer. But that's also just so complicated. I don't know. I see a lot of things that end up being in a story because someone had a question that they couldn't answer, and instead of digging a little bit deeper like you, you had said, you know you really want to dig deeper instead of digging deeper and finding something that already is in your story that you can connect to it. You just add this other thing that now someone asks you a question. Well, why is that there? And then you have to explain that, and you explain that by adding something else.

Sara Gentry: Yeah.

Christy Yaros: It doesn't always work.

Sara Gentry: And then you end up with the beef trifle.

Christy Yaros: And you end up right like, well, why is this here? Well, someone said it wasn't savory enough.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, that's true, too. I guess it is worth mentioning to the writers. Especially if you're at the beginning. You might not be getting feedback unless you're working with a book coach at the beginning to to work out the story structure - which in general, if you can do that, we are biased, but we recommend it for this very reason - because the book coach will tell you, “You've got 5 different stories going on here instead of just one.” But that's another way, too, that people can over complicate by getting too many opinions on what they're trying to do and like you just said someone said it needed more of this, and someone said it needed more of this. And I think sometimes we pile on instead of considering what we can remove. So I'm a musician, and I use in-ear mix monitors to hear what other people in my band are playing and singing and whatnot, and always the 1st words of advice are, if you're having trouble hearing something, instead of turning that something up, try to turn something else down, because you're trying to like, because the same thing happens. It's like, Oh, I don't hear enough drums. I'm gonna turn up the drums. Well, now, I can't hear the guitar. I'm gonna turn up the guitar, and you're just like adding and adding and adding, and then the next thing it's like, and I've got this cacophony in my ears, and I can't hear anything.

Christy Yaros: Yes, yes, but that's so, you, you know. So if someone says, Well, why? Why did your character do this? Oh, well, because they have a friend who told them to. Oh, no, now I gotta add this friend right instead of maybe there was something in the back story or in your that you already have there that you can just tap into. Or maybe you just need to change something that you've already got and make it so that that thing makes sense, you know. It's it's a lot of push and pull and figuring it out, but ultimately even streamlining it, it's not just for your reader. It's for you. It's for your sanity. It's for allowing you to get it done, because otherwise, if it's no. Now I need to come, I need to figure this out. I need more characters. I need more this. And you're also keeping yourself from getting the book done.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Well we won't over complicate this anymore. Writers, we will leave you with some simple tips here. But Christy, where can we connect with you online? Where are you hanging out?

Christy Yaros: Oh, well, so my website is my name, christyyaros.com and on social media. There are accounts that exist that are usually my name at christyyaros. I have not been on social media so much lately, but for sure. Check that out and our podcast Coaching KidLit every every month with Sharon Skinner, my co-host. And then October first, I am doing a mini blueprint workshop, which is a tool that a lot of Author Accelerator coaches. Use where you're figuring out a lot of these elements of your story beforehand, if you're just starting out. But it's a live workshop. We're going to be hands on doing this stuff. And this is where maybe you can figure out how some of these elements would best work together to create that web instead of that pile. So if you head to my website.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, we will have links to all of that writers, and I'll also just put in a plug for the mini blueprint. It's like one of my favorite writing tools for this very reason, because it really helps you drill down like, what is the like main essence of this story? And what do I really need? What is most essential to pull off this story? And then the rest of the stuff can maybe come and go. But it's kind of like you're non-negotiables of what you need to establish and.

Christy Yaros: Just seeing that altogether.

Sara Gentry: Yeah.

Christy Yaros: See that these are all separate things that I cannot connect to.

Sara Gentry: Yeah.

Christy Yaros: Says, how can I connect that together? So it's always good to try and distill down first, and then we can expand back.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, I totally agree. So is it exclusive to middle grade and YA?

Christy Yaros: It is not.

Sara Gentry: Okay.

Christy Yaros: I mean, there'll be a little bit of focus on that. But no, the tool, as we know, is for is for everybody.

Sara Gentry: Great alright writers. Christy, I just want to thank you so much for your time and for this conversation that certainly applies to all writers.

Christy Yaros: Even us, even us.

Sara Gentry: Yes, we even have to remind ourselves of these things with a fair amount of frequency. But it's just the nature of nature, of what we do.

Christy Yaros: Well, thank you so much for doing this, and for all that you do with all of your summits for us. We appreciate you.

Sara Gentry: Well, thank you! Alright writers, thanks for joining us, and we will catch you next time. Bye.

Christy Yaros: Bye.