Video Transcript (computer generated - may contain errors)

Sara Gentry: Hello, writers. We are going to have a lot of fun today because I have got Rebecca Grogan here with me. Hello, Rebecca!

Rebecca Grogan: Thank you, Sara, for having me. I'm so excited. It's gonna be great.

Sara Gentry: I just love chatting with Rebecca. So, writers this is gonna be a super fun conversation, but I may know Rebecca well, but you may not. So let me introduce you. Rebecca began her content. Creation journey early on by writing commercials for local businesses which her disc jockey father would record for the radio station, where he was a broadcaster. This sparked her love of words and eventually turned into a successful career as a marketing strategist and corporate event planner, in 2,022. I keep saying this. 2022. It's the mathematician in me. I'm sorry.

Rebecca Grogan: It’s fine.

Sara Gentry: In 2022 she founded Kaleidoscope Creative, which provides book coaching and writing services. She is an Author Accelerator certified book coach, who specializes in coaching holiday themed romances as well as teaching writers to market their books. She lives in North Carolina, where she and her husband raised their son, and are now empty nesters, except for the 2 rescue pups who run the house.

Rebecca Grogan: Yes, they are in charge. We know that’s the good life.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, it's not not too shabby there. So I love this niche that you coach with holiday themed romance, because within the romance world, it is a very, very important sub genre of books, particularly probably for Christmas, but I've been noticing a lot of Valentine's Day and Halloween, and summer, 4th of July, and all the things. Yeah. So maybe just so that writers who may not be as familiar with this sub genre, can you describe exactly what you mean when we're talking about celebration holiday themed romance?

Rebecca Grogan: So I agree with you. It probably started as Christmas. I think the 1st holiday romance that I read was actually a Halloween one which I was like, Oh, this is great! But I think Hallmark Channel has really set the stage for all of this, and it's any holiday. It doesn't have to be a major holiday. It can be a pagan celebration. It can be patriotic celebrations, you know. I've talked to people about using different military holidays to move the story along. You know, when they meet, and the cute meat and all that stuff so it can involve any holiday theme, and a lot of it is seasonal, too. So you know, you have the holiday, and then the season that the holiday is in, and you can add that in as well, you know, who doesn't like a snowy evening with the hot chocolate and a fire, you know all of that stuff. So yes, it's any romance genre sub genre, and it just has the holiday in there as part of the story. And what it can do is start leading the narrative. It can be part of the narrative between the characters. And so it adds a complex layer that is fun. If depending on what's going on with the characters and how they are reacting to the holiday, that they're being ready.

Sara Gentry: Right. And it's usually centered, we're talking about it being centered around like one holiday we're not talking about, say, like a romance story that might progress over the course of a year or something, and we see the couple at Christmas, and we see the couple at Valentine's Day. We see them at Easter, like we're not looking at all the holidays at once. We're just like.

Rebecca Grogan: It's usually one, or it's a season. So if you think about the main character moves to a new town, and it's fall. So Ho Halloween happens, and maybe that's when the cute meat occurs, and then they're moving through and maybe ends at Christmas, you know. So those 3 holidays are interwoven. Or it can just be one. It's really up to the writer, and how they want the story to progress. And and like you said the length of the relationship really is going to determine whether they're there for the 4th of July Thanksgiving, whatever. So yeah, it's up to the writer, but all of it's fun.

Sara Gentry: Yeah. So why do you think writers have become attracted to this particular sub genre?

Rebecca Grogan: Well, I think that it's because it gives you, as I mentioned before, an extra layer to add into your book, and there's certain things. We all know that romance fans, you know the readers like me, and I am the ultimate romance fan, we have expectations of, you know, our happily ever afters. And it's gonna happen. So we know that's gonna happen. And that's why we read romance. But when you add a holiday in it just gives, there's an extra spark, and I find myself as I'm going through the year, like right now, I'm looking for Halloween romances. I'm looking for things that are a little bit different. And then I will move into something that might be around Thanksgiving and then into Christmas, of course, and there's a ton. There is a ton, and I think they're fun. And I think the other thing is holidays elicit strong emotional reactions. And so you know, it's kind of like you love them, you hate them, or you're indifferent. And there's so much opportunity for a character's arc to change in relationship to the holiday. And what's happening in those situations, whether it's a time for reflection, or it's a time for celebration, and they're seeing something they've never seen before. Maybe through the eye of the person that they're in love with it. It's just there's a lot there that can enhance your character's journey through the book so. And it's just fun. I love them, I think they’re great. So.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, no, I love that, because even if even if a book is about a holiday, that maybe I don't even observe myself, I at least have this commonality, and knowing that there are holidays that I celebrate that might be similar to the holiday that the person is is writing about, so I feel like it almost provides an easy access into the story.

Rebecca Grogan: Absolutely, and it kind of goes in the opposite direction, too. For instance, if there is a romance about someone who celebrates pagan holidays. And then you start learning about the rituals and the traditions that that sect has. That's very interesting, too, because, you know, you think about the summer solstice and winter. It's like another layer, and you learn. And I think for me, I've read some that include holidays that I didn't know anything about, and then it made me wonder, and it made me want to know more. And you know, if it's well written, it's like, I want to keep reading this writer's books because she's using these things. I'm not used to. And I like them. Yeah. And it just, you know, it helps to kind of branch out. And so yeah, there's so much opportunity for a writer that wants to write holiday romance. I mean, there's a lot of things that can happen.

Sara Gentry: Yeah. So you alluded to the expectations that romance readers and writers will have, because I don't know about you, but I feel like romance readers, more than any readers on the planet, are very protective of their tropes, and are very clear about what these things mean, and you know hell hath no fury like the reviewer on goodreads who did not get what they wanted.

Rebecca Grogan: Yeah, because, you know, if you better have that happily ever after. And there's always controversy about what's the difference between romance. Can it be a romance if it doesn't have a happily ever after, even if there is a big love affair in the book? No, it's got to have a happily ever after. I mean, that's what we read for I mean, I think I said to you earlier, and I will say this for me personally, that romance is like Xanax for me. It is a relaxation, it's an escape. It's totally entertaining. And I don't feel like I'm weighed down when I get to the end of the story. I know there's going to be rough parts, and you know romances cover so many different topics and themes, but I know they're going to be together, and that's really all I want. But I want to see how they get there and what their interaction is, and the characters are just. They're crucial for any book. But I think specifically in romance. You better have really good developed characters to move the story forward, and to be interesting, to keep everybody entertained and engaged. 

Sara Gentry: Yep. So within a holiday, or like, you've mentioned a celebration romance, what would be the expectations if I am a romance author who is, let's say, let's say I'm advertising my Christmas romance. You know, what are the expectations that this label is going to bring to the work?

Rebecca Grogan: So if you use Christmas, which is obviously a big one. We're all familiar with Christmas, right? So we have certain expectations that there's going to be mistletoe sleigh rides, snow snowball fights, fights over gingerbread cookies. I mean, there's a myriad of things that can happen, and as a reader myself, I want to see some things I'm familiar with, but I love to see it happen in a twist. So if the 2 main characters, you know it's a friends to lovers, whatever the trope is, if they do hate each other, what does the holiday do to bring them together, and to show how they react to one another. And I was reading a book. I don't know how long ago it was, but anyway, they were in a gingerbread contest, competing against each other, and she hates him so much. He's so arrogant, you know all that blah blah. So she's a perfectionist. She's making her gingerbread house, and of course he's bumbling over by the oven, and he has burnt his stuff, and he's trying to get it out, and he is taking the spatula, and what happens is it flips, and it like hits her in the head. Well, he doesn't realize that, because his back’s to her, and so he's still doing this. Things are flying around, so she is sure he's doing it on purpose. She's trying to ignore him, and then she loses her temper, and she picks up her house, and she starts throwing it at him. And they are like, and then everybody's in this big gingerbread, Frank, and he doesn't have any clue why she was throwing stuff at him. And so that's the kind of stuff in a holiday romance that one. It makes you laugh. It's it's it's not. There is not perfection anywhere, as we know with holidays. They aren't perfect. So there's laughter that gets involved. There's a lot of deeper emotion if somebody is traumatized by something when they were growing up. And it's part of their back story that makes them respond to things that are happening around them, and that gives you the internal thoughts of the character. And then you, you know how they're going to react to something that's external. So I just really see it. I see the holiday as it moves the story forward. It can. It can really help that narrative come alive, it can bring out all of those emotions, and I think I think of them as I think a holiday is actually kind of a character, because they work so well with the the 2 protagonists in the book. So yeah.

Sara Gentry: Yeah, no. Let's talk more about that because that's really interesting. Thinking of the holiday in that way. I know that. There are certain books where people will think of the setting as a character because of how prominent a role it's playing in the book, and I could certainly see where the holiday could be thought of as its own character. So if that's the case, how do you work with writers as a book coach, how are you helping people to develop something that isn't a character as a character, you know? I'd love to hear more about that.

Rebecca Grogan: So you know, as we have been trained as Author Accelerator coaches, we know that you have to have an outline and a framework for your book that it's important you well, you can pants and be creative all you want. But you need to know where you're going. And I love to say, let's just start with the end in mind. Okay, let's figure out what your plan is. And then, as your characters are developing and you decide, okay, I want to put Christmas into this book or Halloween. What opportunity does this holiday present for situations where the characters are together and situations that would reveal something about their internal thoughts, or how they are. So I really think that you look at it like it's just a layer you're layering. It's like a person that's standing outside of the room that you know it's like when you smell cookies right. And that evokes something in your memory from childhood or whatever it is, and it brings forth that emotion. And I think that using the holiday with triggers because everybody has triggers for holidays, those triggers can be used with your characters, which makes your characters deeper, right? Because they're thinking a lot about what it is they feel, you know the hate, the indifference, the love, whatever and so you weave those holiday opportunities and situations into the story, and then it can move the characters forward. It can be something where it's gonna happen. This is gonna happen here. And they're both going to be there. How are they going to react and engage with one another? And so the holiday has set that up for them, whether it's you know, you're gonna go sled riding, and he's gonna be there. You're going ice skating and you fall down. And you know any of those things? Yeah, but I do. I see it very much as an integral part of the story, and it just, but it has to be subtle. It's it's not one of those things where the holiday should never compete with the 2 main characters. Right? The holiday has to be layered in, woven in subtly. And so it seems natural, you know I did. I read a book once, and I think that this author put, it wasn't a bad book, but she used every tradition from Christmas in this book, and it was like, Oh, my gosh, okay, now we really they're gonna go straight from the wrapping into baking the cookies, and then they're hanging the mistletoe. And then it was like it was just like a laundry list to kind of make sure, I guess, that she got everything in there, and you don't necessarily have to do that. You know you have to think about the catharsis to happen when she realizes that he spent a thousand dollars on a gift for her. And is he trying to buy her love? You know those kind of things that they can react to. That seem more natural. You know the theme is there. The holiday is there, you know. The setting could be a holiday inn. Oh, wait! Sorry. I sometimes think I'm funnier than I am.

Sara Gentry: And I thought it was funny, so.

Rebecca Grogan: Okay, good. I like you, Sara. So you know, it's just, it's part of the story. And it's important to the story. And I think people don't necessarily think of it that way. But when you start reading these romances, where the holiday is character centric, you know, it's providing movement in the story for the characters. And, you know, whatever the goal is, of course the goal is always for them to get together. But whatever the arc of change for for the main characters are, you can see it working through these different situations or scenes that contain the holiday and watch the change that happens. And it's just I just think it's a fun way to get through. And like I said, it works with any sub genre of romance. I mean it's just. It's just something that adds an extra layer. I I love them. I look forward to them, and I do know that when the new ones come out I am like on my kindle just getting them, and I also will have to admit that in the middle of the summer. I do start reading the holiday romances, because I'm like, I can't wait.

Sara Gentry: You're allowed to do Christmas in July.

Rebecca Grogan: Oh, I do! I have to. I have to lock my husband out of the house. He's like no hallmark in July. 

Sara Gentry: Well, it brings up an an interesting point, though in that it really is important for the holiday to be integrated and and woven in in a meaningful way, because if it isn't, then I wouldn't consider it a holiday romance. It might be a romance that contains a holiday scene, or something like that. But the holiday itself should be, as you've mentioned, like part of the plot, and providing a source of either conflict or tension, or whatever that's involved in the progression of the story.

Rebecca Grogan: Yeah, and the situations I mean, like I have read, well, I've read so many. But you know, just to give an example of what you just said. I've read many books where it's like, Oh, there's a 4th of July. There's a picnic, and so that to me is not holiday romance. But when the characters have a job or something that they have to be involved in this town celebration around the 4th of July, and it builds up to the parade and the fireworks. And all these different things that need to be done, and it is centered around that holiday and the traditions that happen. You know. It's pie baking, you know, who's got the number one blueberry pie for the 4th of July kind of thing. So it's all in there, and that to me is a holiday romance, because it it begins and it progresses along with the situations that the holiday provides for the characters. 

Sara Gentry: That makes a lot of sense. And I think one thing, too, that can be fun with holidays, at least from the perspective of being the writer, I mean, as you've mentioned, the holiday can provide so many sources of conflict, but also like there's usually a nice supporting cast, because the holidays are often involving our good friends or our family. And so you very rarely are going to have, just like, you know, 2 characters and holiday romance. I'm not saying that it isn't ever done but I love supporting casts of characters.

Rebecca Grogan: I do, too, and I think they add so much to a story, and you know I think that it's also a good opportunity, for a romance writer is going to write a series, not every series, every book in the series has to be around a holiday, but a holiday is certainly a really good introduction, you know, if you've got connected members, you know whether it's a family or a group of friends, or whatever. You know, the whole big plastic pants at Thanksgiving, and eating too much pie and getting too drunk and doing too many things you're not supposed to do, and then, you know, doing something stupid. So you know the main character. Sister ends up having a fight with Bro. You know all these things can happen, and then it sets you up for your next series, or the next book in the series, and I know that as a reader I love trying to identify who the next book is going to be about.

Sara Gentry: Oh, sure!

Rebecca Grogan: Yeah, if it's set in a specific town and a lot of writers do this, and I love it. You created a town. You've created a cast, a cast and crew in this town, and they play parts in this. You know every book that you read, and I I love it. One of my favorite ones. The squirrels in town play a big part in every book. It's hilarious, these squirrels I don't know. I moved here from I moved to North Carolina, from Virginia, and our squirrels weren't like the North Carolina squirrels which will like come up to you and get in your face, and they look at you like they're crazy. And this writer put the squirrels in her books, and it's just you're you're just like cracking up, cause they do human things. And it's just yeah. Anyway, romance is awesome.

Sara Gentry: Well, I want to make sure that all our romance writers here can connect with you. Because I think it can be super fun to work on a holiday story, and if that is you writers you need to connect with Rebecca here. So how can people find you?

Rebecca Grogan: They can find me on my website. And it's kcbookcoaching.com. And for any writers that are going to entertain the idea of putting a holiday in your book. I have a free document on there, and it is called holidays, and happily ever after. And it's 5 steps to weave the holiday into your story so that it makes sense, and it's subtle and really good. So please go over there and download that and if you have any technical difficulties, it's all my fault. Just shoot me an email, and I'll make sure you get the link.

Sara Gentry: Oh, that's fantastic! Rebecca, I want to thank you for this fabulous conversation. And thank you so much for your time.

Rebecca Grogan: Oh, it's been my pleasure! Can we do this again?

Sara Gentry: Absolutely.

Rebecca Grogan: I'll change topics.

Sara Gentry: Yes, absolutely. We will have to have another discussion, and writers don't worry about any of those links. We will have them all for you in the show in the show notes as well, so that you can easily find Rebecca. But thanks again, Rebecca, and thank you. Writers. We will catch you next time.

Rebecca Grogan: Thank you. Bye.